"I turned towards him the tear-stained cheeks and there he made it fully revealed that colour that Inferno had hidden"
A reminder from Dante - that in his cosmology, we as human souls are originally Good. Becoming virtuous is to return to the natural state, and remove the stains and blockings that have accumulated over decades of lived life.
In some ways in direct contrast to other strains of theology!
Powerful reminder that we all are good, but equally Powerful reminder that we all need to wash our face because "There is no one just, not one,
there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
All have gone astray; all alike are worthless;
there is not one who does good, there is not even one." as a result of (original) sin.
(08-01-2025, 06:41 PM)Chris Wrote: Powerful reminder that we all are good, but equally Powerful reminder that we all need to wash our face because "There is no one just, not one,
there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
All have gone astray; all alike are worthless;
there is not one who does good, there is not even one." as a result of (original) sin.
True.
And this opens up big territories in Dante. He largely seems to relate to the original sin in Eden as the "ground mistake" we do, but not something that stains our nature by default (or forever as in some theologies).
The soul in Dante is pure and virtuous and joyful when breathed into the embryo. The potential for sin is there, and inevitably everyone will gather many stains through lived life, to later be cleansed.
But they are still additions, not internal features in the deep. (Other then as eternal potential/temptations - depending on degrees of distortion).
Just meaning: to the extent that Augustine (and Luther and Calvin) proposes "born guilt", Dante rejects this entirely. His view would be more something like: Born in virtue, but predisposed for suberbia and vice, which is unnatural, and could/should be "washed off" later, gradually.
A very different anthropology - and more aligned with the first centuries of Christianity.
(08-01-2025, 06:41 PM)Chris Wrote: Powerful reminder that we all are good, but equally Powerful reminder that we all need to wash our face because "There is no one just, not one,
there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
All have gone astray; all alike are worthless;
there is not one who does good, there is not even one." as a result of (original) sin.
True.
And this opens up big territories in Dante. He largely seems to relate to the original sin in Eden as the "ground mistake" we do, but not something that stains our nature by default (or forever as in some theologies).
The soul in Dante is pure and virtuous and joyful when breathed into the embryo. The potential for sin is there, and inevitably everyone will gather many stains through lived life, to later be cleansed.
But they are still additions, not internal features in the deep. (Other then as eternal potential/temptations - depending on degrees of distortion).
Just meaning: to the extent that Augustine (and Luther and Calvin) proposes "born guilt", Dante rejects this entirely. His view would be more something like: Born in virtue, but predisposed for suberbia and vice, which is unnatural, and could/should be "washed off" later, gradually.
A very different anthropology - and more aligned with the first centuries of Christianity.
That's definitely better view of Original sin, then in protestant theology. Yet fact remains, that "All have gone astray". The filth on the face is not there by default, but it's there and to wash it we need to see it first. Descend before ascend. Inferno is "only" 34% but that's still a lot.
(08-02-2025, 04:01 AM)richard Wrote: True.
And this opens up big territories in Dante. He largely seems to relate to the original sin in Eden as the "ground mistake" we do, but not something that stains our nature by default (or forever as in some theologies).
The soul in Dante is pure and virtuous and joyful when breathed into the embryo. The potential for sin is there, and inevitably everyone will gather many stains through lived life, to later be cleansed.
But they are still additions, not internal features in the deep. (Other then as eternal potential/temptations - depending on degrees of distortion).
Just meaning: to the extent that Augustine (and Luther and Calvin) proposes "born guilt", Dante rejects this entirely. His view would be more something like: Born in virtue, but predisposed for suberbia and vice, which is unnatural, and could/should be "washed off" later, gradually.
A very different anthropology - and more aligned with the first centuries of Christianity.
That's definitely better view of Original sin, then in protestant theology. Yet fact remains, that "All have gone astray". The filth on the face is not there by default, but it's there and to wash it we need to see it first. Descend before ascend. Inferno is "only" 34% but that's still a lot.
100%. With varying amounts of work to do - but everyone has to go up the mountain.
It's interesting how Dante later also describes the condition also as having a mind that is both "enstoned" and "stained". Only Inferno could break his own "enstoned" mind.
(08-04-2025, 01:30 PM)Chris Wrote: How does Inferno break it?
I think by showing him where it inevitably ends, without any transcendent connection above. It becomes self-referential and about the self. And in some ways (this is my reading of it), that will eventually justify vice - which by definition is short term and self-destructive. A sort of a "dead-end" (as well as spiritually evil, but that would be "invisible", if one already denies the transcendent).
I understand now and yes, totally agree. That's why, for me at least, Inferno is also a book to be going back to continually, as it shows as many facets of the defiled 'me' as many there are characters. Every of those facets that I fail to recognize, is a part of me that won't be purged in this life (a form of love that will not be re-ordered).
Excellent points: Inferno is both a detailed map in general, and a "checklist" of sorts, going through one's inner facets.
It's fascinating too how it becomes more clarified later, that so much of the source is the lack of the spiritual "dome" above, the connection to the higher spheres and heaven.
E.g as we talked about Envy - one cannot really understand it in purely secular frames. Even more so Superbia; without objective eternal Truth, the idea of distortions becomes problematic and sometimes endless debates about values etc.
(08-05-2025, 02:40 PM)richard Wrote: Excellent points: Inferno is both a detailed map in general, and a "checklist" of sorts, going through one's inner facets.
It's fascinating too how it becomes more clarified later, that so much of the source is the lack of the spiritual "dome" above, the connection to the higher spheres and heaven.
E.g as we talked about Envy - one cannot really understand it in purely secular frames. Even more so Superbia; without objective eternal Truth, the idea of distortions becomes problematic and sometimes endless debates about values etc.
That's why the whole book is to be read again and again.
In regards to Pride, I like Mark Vernon's commentary on it. He notices when the characters are speaking and acting as "I" and when as "us".
